Cast bullets

Help, fellow reloaders! I decide that I could better afford to hone my skills with my .44 mag by using cast bullet so I purchased 1,000 of them-pretty consistent weights too. The problem is in the load data in my Hornady manual for 240 gr lead bullets. The loads are down in the 800-900fps range. While a de-tuned load is reasonable this seems to be an extreme reduction which won't provide a reasonably good representation of 'real' shooting conditions. I usually use H-110 for this bullet and apologize that I don't have more load data but I'm at the office right now and this came to mind. I wrote to Hodgdon but they haven't replied yet, which is unusual for them. Thanks in advance for your recommendations.

I do not have a Hornady manual in my collection, but, I would take a guess that the loading data they are displaying is for their swaged lead bullets. These swaged bullets are pure lead and very soft and intended for velocities that usually do not exceed 900 fps.

You did not mention if you bought swaged bullets or if they are true cast bullets. Cast bullets are usually of an alloy that is mixed to produce bullets much harder than pure lead ones. If it is super easy to dent them with your thumbnail then most likely they are swaged. If it takes a lot of pressure to make a mark then they are probably some harder alloy, maybe as hard as Lyman's #2 which is a standard.

If you have a true cast bullet and one that is harder than pure lead then you can use data for jacketed bullets. Start at the low end and work up watching for pressure signs.

It it very important to remember that if you find data specifically for cast bullets to not use it for jacketed bullets even if the weight is the same. It has a lot to do with the way the lead will engage the rifleing in the bore vs the way a copper jacket or even copper plating will.

Moving on, the bullet casters, both those of us in and outside of the Cast Bullet Assn. <http://www.castbulletassoc.org/> are starting to realize that super hard cast bullets might not be the way to go. We are producing excellent bullets with no barrel leading using alloys that are not much harder than regular old wheel weights.

Bullet obturation is the name of the game. The person loading the cartridge has to produce a load that will have enough pressure to obturate the base of the bullet to the bore. This will produce optimum pressure and velocity without to much of either or both and no barrel leading.

Pushing a cast bullet over 2,000 fps is not unheard of in rifle loadings. I have pushed my 357 loads to over 1600 feet per second before I experienced leading.

You are going to have to do a bit of experimentation. For run of the mill standard practice loads I have found Unique to produce the best results with all cast handgun bullets that I have tried. There is one slight problem in that because of the way that Unique is made it is a natural smoker and then you add the bullet lube and these loads will put off a bit of smoke which some people are not comfortable with on indoor ranges.

If you want to get into more of a magnum load for your 44 you might want to consider trying some 2400 with cast bullets. It seems to be a natural companion for cast bullets at higher velocities in these bigger bores.

A good reloading manual to have in your collection if you are going to cast bullets or purchase and load up lots of them is the Lyman manual. It will contain data for both jacketed and cast bullets in just about every caliber.

******** Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't. ********

There is some variation from data source to data source. The hornady manual

loads are for soft swaged bullets and have to be kept slow 'cause such bullets tend to lead pretty badly. If you've got a hard cast bullet which fits your bore correctly and uses a good lube, you can drive them faster than you can jacketed bullets of the same weight.

I use 3 loads for 250 grain cast bullets. First, for slow, 6.5-7 grains of WW231. Second, for medium, 17.5 grains of 2400. Finally, for full power, I use 24 grains of WW296.

You have to be careful about interchanging loading data because different .44 bullets, even of the same nominal weight, crimp at different depths thus changing the volume of the case ... in some ways more important than a 20-25 grain change in bullet weight.

My approach is to start with the lightest load for a jacketed bullet of the same weight using the same powder I've selected, then working up a half grain at a time shooting 5 shot groups for accuracy. When I get adequate speed and accuracy at the same time, I stop. If I can't get that combination within the listed data, I try a different powder. The hornady manual is a pretty good one to work with in my experience.

If you're not pretty used to recoil, those lighter loads, while 'detuned', are easier to shoot and to get used to your guns trigger pull with. I find that once I get a good load for whatever new .44 I've bought, I don't shoot it all that much, enough to stay familiar, but not enough to beat myself up. Once upon a time, I used to go through about 800 .44 mag shells per week, but now I prefer to save it for the shots that matter and use littler, cheaper to feed cartridges for most of my plinking.

Another must have, in my opinion, is RCBS' cast bullet manual.

While 800-900 fps. may be mooching along compared to jacketed bullets the cast bullets are near the top end at those vel. This is due to the soft lead. It simply can't grip the rifleing at high vel. If pushed beyond the limits you get barrel leading. This gets worse as vel. increase.Purchased bullets are commonly swaged or cold formed, to do this manf. will use a alloy that is easily formed but will not take much vel. Cast bullets can be made with a variety of alloys and casting methods to reach higher vel. but still 1200 fps. to maybe 1600fps. is the limit. Col. Harrisons book CAST BULLETS will tell more if you're interested.For removal of leading there are some comercial products Lewis lead remover is one. While not reccomended mercury will dissolve lead quite easily. Firing jacketed rounds often just burnish the deposits though some times it will remove light leading. good

That's true for swaged bullets, not for cast bullets.

My standard .44 loads push a home cast 250 grain SWC right at 1400 fps; I get essentially no leading. After 100 rounds, 3-5 strokes of a bore brush with some Hoppes, a couple dry patches, one slightly oily one, and I'm done.

That, too, isn't quite right. Most leading at higher handgun velocities comes from incorrect barrel-bullet fit. If any gasses can escape past the bullet (and at 30,000 to 35,000 cup, they'll find even the smallest gap) they act like a little blow torch melting a small bit of the bullets surface allowing it to smear onto the steel as the bullet goes by.

Softer bullets may slug up (obturate) and seal the bore even though undersized where a hard bullet won't; in that case, you may actually get less leading with a softer bullet even at high velocity.

Again, not correct. I ran quite a few 425 grain cast bullets out of my lever action .45-70 at just over 1800 fps. Leading was never noticible. (Recoil was ugly.) I've seen a number of really nice groups shot at about 2400 fps with lead alloys; at that level, alloy and hardening are critical, as is bullet fit, gas check, and proper lube, but it can be done without leading. For a short while in the late 80s I hung out with some guys around Grants Pass, Oregon, who were hitting 2700 fps with cast bullets, getting half MOA accuracy, and no apparent leading. Their trick, on top of what I list above, was spiking their lube with some sort of powdered metallic compounds. (They wouldn't share the formula ... drats ... but I was involved in the shooting so I know they weren't pulling my leg.)

Another useful item is Hoppe's 'lead away' patches. They're not always easy to find but they work well.

It is possible to achieve very high velocities with dead soft bullets. CB author Paul Matthews gets almost 2000 fps in his .45-70 using pure lead, without objectionable leading.

And Harrison's book ( covering articles that Harrison wrote in AR from 1957 to 1979 ) is still valuable, but some of it is dated. Today, after decades of additional research by members of the Cast Bullet Association, much more is understood about cast bullets, how they work, and how to make them work better. Some of Harrison's statements are no longer valid, but most is still very helpful in understanding cast bullets.

Jay T

PS: it is possible to exceed 2400 fps with cast bullets without leading and using NO LUBE! Don't try this at home. ;^)

I use cast bullets with no gas check in my Winchester .44 mag Trapper at 1650 fps and no leading whatsoever. I also use cast lead bullets made from wheel weights with one stick of 50/50 tin solder per 6 pounds of wheel weights. The bullets, from an NEI mould, weigh 410 grains with gas check and leave the muzzle of my .404 Jeffery at 2150 fps, exactly duplicating the old cordite load, and again no trace of leading.

Many thanks to all wo contributed to this thread. VERY helpful and I have a new area of interest!

And on Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:45:27 -0800, Tom Rutledge

Yes, I have my copy. Sad to say, though, is that the book is still out of print the last I heard.

******** Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't. ********